DX Studio

General Discussion - New DXTokens System

Chris S DX Studio Team 01 February 2010 09:29:52

Hi all, We've noticed consistent demand over the years for interchange of skills, some people needing models, some need code modules. Many users here provide simple models and code snippets for free, but what about where it would more than just a few minutes' work? How about if someone could offer some coding now but may want a model in return in the future? What we're considering is a DXTokens system. This would be attached to the user profile, where tokens can be purchased at £25 each. To avoid legal complications, tokens would have no redeemable cash value, but could be used against purchases of DX licenses, and we may offer some basic modelling and coding services in exchange for tokens too. Importantly, these could be traded between users for agreed units of work. This would deter fraud, as fraudsters wouldn't be able to take the money and run, and by referring to the stars, awards and possible new recommendations system (eBayesque), people could be much more confident in commissioning models or code depending on these indicators. Terms would indicate we have final say over any dispute should one still occur. If someone had a vast amount of tokens (i.e. was running a business through this system), we could look at a negotiable delayed conversion to cash-out, and get the correct legal paperwork in place. So, it's a win for us, as we're effectively 'pre-selling' our licenses and services, bringing the money in sooner. It could also be a win for users with low cash but high skill, as they could get models/code and licenses without the need for GBP. It may also be a win for those wishing to buy services, as the internal system with recommendations and audit by us should be safer than an external payment arrangement. So what do you think?

Moach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 20 May 2008 01 February 2010 10:06:25

oooh, that seems nice! so basically, if one helps ppl enough around these boards, he could get his licence renewed for free? seems like a clever idea... i´m only concerned that it may cause undesired competitivity around the boards... say someone posts a question, someone might reply "i´ll solve that for you for XX tokens", then leave it at that... this kind of behaviour would be harmful for new users seeking answers i worry a bit.... so i suggest that the use of such tokes was restricted to a specific forum area, a "DXMarket" of sorts... this would minimize the "mercenary effect" that money (even fake money) tends to bring out on people just worrying in advance i´m brazillian, it´s in my nature to expect everyone to try and be less than honest... (someone stole my cellphone at the Metallica concert this weekend - great show, tho ) but if done correctly, such a system could incentive people to help eachother out... it´s all in how it´s implemented cheerz

Chris S DX Studio Team 01 February 2010 10:10:16

I agree about not affecting the free and helpful nature of the base community. Maybe indeed people have to actively REQUEST paid for work (via a marketplace forum - restricting talk of such trades to there), rather than people offer it everywhere.

Moach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 20 May 2008 01 February 2010 11:10:16

exactly! done this way, only good things can come out of this! i´m all for it!

BUnzaga Commercial Pro Edition Joined 07 June 2006 01 February 2010 11:13:57

I love the idea.

Cardek Commercial Pro Edition Joined 01 June 2008 01 February 2010 12:56:32

"I agree about not affecting the free and helpful nature of the base community". I may be a bit pessimistic on this one but I fear it will affect it eventually. Just my 2 cent, I don't decide after all.

JimmDaBimm Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 25 May 2008 01 February 2010 12:57:59

I love the Idea in combination with the marketplace idea . I think this could also increase the motivation for some people to offer some nice stuff. But i think 25GBP are a bit too much. I mean if some wants to offer only some small stuff.

Chris S DX Studio Team 01 February 2010 13:07:35

We were thinking below a certain level price level it would interfere with the free help more, but at 25GBP it was enough of a chunk of work to warrant payment. Nothing's fixed though so open to suggestions.

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 01 February 2010 13:19:10

well this is different > i´m only concerned that it may cause undesired competitivity around the boards... say someone posts a question, someone might reply "i´ll solve that for you for XX tokens", then leave it at that... this kind of behaviour would be harmful for new users seeking answers I believe this is the problem with the unity3d community I believe Chris's solution to have a dedicated "Token Marketplace" forum would help cut down on tokenmongers > I agree about not affecting the free and helpful nature of the base community. Maybe indeed people have to actively REQUEST paid for work (via a marketplace forum - restricting talk of such trades to there), rather than people offer it everywhere. I like that idea! have a formal Request form to fill out then for both parties have to agree to it. Maybe set up that forum so that people have to go through a process so as to make it more than a forum and maybe have a couple options "It's a Deal, Let's Get Started" and "I dunno, let's talk it over some more"

DXChristy Non-Commercial Std Edition Joined 16 August 2009 01 February 2010 13:22:20

what about pricing in euros or dollars, surely the pound wont exist for much longer!

Chris S DX Studio Team 01 February 2010 13:26:31

@DXChristy - yes, there's no problem in the future us having accounts directly in other currencies. We can do that as soon as it's cost-effective (i.e. the amount of transactions in the token system covers all the setup costs for us). In the meantime payment can be made in other currencies and converted to GBP automatically (with a guide rate able to approximate the USD or EUR amounts).

Thom Parkin Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 18 April 2009 01 February 2010 14:44:28

Although I think the idea is brilliant, I share some of the concerns mentioned here. Would Worldweaver accept DXTokens for their Support Services? I can anticipate some skilled modelers, with bright ideas for a project, earning DXTokens to contract Worldweaver to realize their ideas. I would also propose the 'Marketplace forum' be an independent instance (a seperate domain or sub-domain) and not directly tied to this forum.

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 01 February 2010 14:45:59

Hmmm Thom brings up a good idea; Could we use DXTokens for bespoke projects

Chris S DX Studio Team 01 February 2010 15:11:58

Yes, we would also accept the tokens for bespoke services. We need to get the balance of tie-in right with the main site right, as potential workers would want people to see their stars/awards/responsiveness from these forums, so the database will be linked. We could enforce not mentioning tokens outside of a special marketplace set of pages (so not the forums), where people create 'jobs' and other users can bid. The main sticking point I can see is the quality aspect of code and models. Sometimes this is very subjective, so we'd have to set some well defined guidelines. Obviously if someone doesn't accept the result, they don't get the code or model rights, so maybe if we had an encrypted 'preview' stage this would ease the signoff process. Also by keeping the max tokens per job down to say 5 or so would reduce the exposure of the developer/modeller too.

Farad77 Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 05 September 2008 01 February 2010 17:24:20

it's a great idea and all the token bough and not use could be redeem to buy the next renew for dxstudio licence so it's a win-win. I'm very interessed and yes the big difficulty is not letting the token system corrupt the good and free help existing on this forums.

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 01 February 2010 17:27:05

I'm totally sold now I plan to buy some tokens as soon as the system is ready Edit: Because I need some models ( specifically a robot with a smashing as it walks animation ) Also some vehicles and maybe even chess pieces Yep I am willing to code for more tokens as I probably will need to in order to collect enough for all the models I need

serialkiler Freeware Edition Joined 03 October 2009 01 February 2010 18:25:19

Sounds a very good idea

Moach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 20 May 2008 01 February 2010 18:31:54

NICE! i hadnt thought of bespoke services! this is turning into a very nice idea! perhaps it would be fitting to include a donations system as well, so if someone is doing a good job for free, others can still encourage him through donations... this will help minimize the "mercenary effect" even further, since there would be a real chance of one being rewarded just for "being nice" now i´m all for it! very nice! cheerz

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 01 February 2010 18:39:18

> NICE! i hadnt thought of bespoke services! this is turning into a very nice idea! And I have a list longer than my table of bespoke services ( if only i had the money )

MiKo Commercial Pro Edition Joined 07 September 2008 01 February 2010 18:40:23

Yumm, interesting idea! A "DXStudio local trading system" Actually, I've been ripped off before, buying (well, try to, heh) content/work. This system would be something more secure, I reckon. And it could be used for a lot of things: People exchanging values between each other, people paying to/getting paid from Worldweaver, people selling stuff like plugins, people donating DXStudio Dollars ..err.. Tokens to others, and so on. It would be a nice base for an official apps market place, where people could sell their games/simulations etc., too. Especially considering the (possible) "apps market", I'd vote for a smaller splitting, though. E.g., a "good yet small DXStudio indie game" wouldn't probably sell for 25 GBP, but do so for 5, maybe? Having said this, I too have concerns about "fecking up the helpful spirit" (especially with a low splitting). Nevertheless, it could be worth a try. Just have the balls to skip it in case things get out of hand

Thom Parkin Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 18 April 2009 01 February 2010 20:27:20

Perhaps Worldweaver can [eventually] offer a line of products, too. I envision T-shirts, coffee mugs, USB keys (that one is already a reality), hats, etc. Establishing the "value" of each Token is very important. And I recommend spending a little time developing a good "marketing" name for them (DX Dollars, Scripting Script, Modelling Money).

Merrie Schonbach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 29 October 2006 01 February 2010 22:08:20

Very interesting idea, I think it would be helpful to have as a reward system, I agree and like the idea. Right now Im developing a little time management game and helping BU with some of his game models so my plate is kinda full (plus working on the Wiki in between polygons It will be wonderful to be able to 'reward' the coders for their help when I get stuck and the other way around as well.

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 02 February 2010 04:01:13

DX Lab Coat!!!!!

LF Freeware Edition Joined 27 April 2009 02 February 2010 09:15:08

Dxllar money lol

Aran Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 18 April 2009 02 February 2010 15:07:02

Sorry I haven't been online in a while Saw this through the dxstudio twitter account, I rather like this idea. @Thom: DX Dollars sounds like a good name or something like DXCredits.

Merrie Schonbach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 29 October 2006 02 February 2010 15:48:13

DX Tokens?

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 02 February 2010 16:43:00

@Merrie: yep, Aran is an awesome artist so the DX Token system is very likely right up his ally

Merrie Schonbach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 29 October 2006 02 February 2010 19:22:47

I was suggesting a name, looking forward to this.

DXChristy Non-Commercial Std Edition Joined 16 August 2009 05 February 2010 09:48:20

what about cash for questions?, or is that reserved for politicians.

LF Freeware Edition Joined 27 April 2009 05 February 2010 09:51:48

cash for questions would lead to a completely inactive community. Imagine, something really stupid like Experts Exchange. You ask a question and pay for each answer even if the answer didn't help. So it would be useless to pay per question.

Charles Commercial Pro Edition Joined 28 January 2009 05 February 2010 10:48:38

I incline more to a commercial gallery on the site. For help the work of user and show the best DX Documents. ...

Moach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 20 May 2008 05 February 2010 11:32:39

cash for questions was the demise of the Unity communty... i´m ALL AGAINST IT - they have a pay-for-solutions approach there that turns their boards into a mercenary hellhole, it´s very uninviting, specially for new users... something like this would ruin this great community overnight... DXTokens, or whatever name you decide to call it, has a different approach, you´re not really "buying tech support", you´d be remunerating people for doing a good job, not paying them for indispensable help that is vital for carrying on with your project in a way, the Unity guys have their users taken "hostage" by this... if anything starts to fail, you need to open up your wallet so you can get help... so much for hobbyists and personal projects on the other hand, bespoke projects are something completely different, to which i strongly agree... you´re basically "hiring" the DXCrew to make something specific for you, now THAT´s worth some money (or Tokens, i guess) so in a nutshell: pay-for-solutions = bad, bespoke projects = good i´m not sure either about a commercial gallery... something like this would create a tendency to decrease the quality of the stuff available in the free gallery... DXTokens should be limited to a specific board, if someone posts models for sale there, then it´s ok, but having a specific gallery for this would encourage users to turn their backs on the free community, which is one of the strongest points of DXS i worry... i don´t wanna see this kind-hearted community go to hell, users should never feel discouraged of making freeware things... so my opinion is DXTokens only go in the DXTokens board - except for donations, those could be done directly just by clicking on the user´s name, just like for reccomendations this way, i believe, brings in the best of both worlds, enabling users to get rewarded for a good job while simultaneously encouraging freeware contributions please give this some careful thinking this is a great community, and that´s a very precious asset cheerz

Charles Commercial Pro Edition Joined 28 January 2009 05 February 2010 11:54:29

Hey moach i have +40 documents in the library. I created all that by your help. if I have to buy scripts, help, evolution, I will be obliged to charge you my documents in the library in the future for evolution and help or inspire new users? or I will not understand that? where is the division? anyway it is your idea.

Moach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 20 May 2008 05 February 2010 12:11:53

hmm good thinking, i don´t think anyone has considered how bundled third-party contributions fit into this system... say i make a helpful script and choose to sell it (i wouldn´t, really... i make freeware), but say i did, then someone buys it and included it into something that he decides to sell... what happens next? does he make money for something i created? or is he forced to share a percentage? who´s gonna keep track of that? this could be a fatal flaw in the system... very well observed... it could be worked around by prohibiting the release of things that use things that others made... but enforcing such a rule could be a moderator´s nightmare any ideas on how to get around such a thing?

Charles Commercial Pro Edition Joined 28 January 2009 05 February 2010 12:17:44

only for commercial DX Studio license? .... I do not know no one understands the effort that I gave to the library. it may be nothing like I often think. and the good old user? but never stop for me.

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 05 February 2010 13:34:22

I live "DX Tokens"; sounds Super Awesome! Moach said it pretty accurately about the unity forums becoming full of money grubbing greedy/lazy people That's why many of them make accounts here on our forums; so that they can get free javascript help I don't have a problem with Unity's members coming here to ask questions because it shows them that DX Studio is faaar superior in both technology and support I bet when v4.x.x comes out that maaaaannny unity users will come over to the "DX-Side" @ ALL UNITY USERS : Come to the DX-Side!! I promise to help you as much as I can ( on these forums ) as long as you give up that unity stuff and devlop on our fantastic DX Studio technology @Everyone Else: Come on everyone! Who's with me?! Let's show our unity guests why they are Far Better Off with us

LF Freeware Edition Joined 27 April 2009 05 February 2010 13:43:42

I support UCM's decision. I don't care if I lose stars for saying this, but think about the possibilities UNITY users could have if they would just stick to dx studio I know that there are people out there that use unity and that are better than me and want to make more stuff, much more easily!

Charles Commercial Pro Edition Joined 28 January 2009 05 February 2010 13:45:41

@ucm I'm with you. I would not change dx studio for something else. it's just my thought, ucm. I do not want to insert the stick in the wheels. I need to talk. I'm with this Tokens idea but ...

Thom Parkin Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 18 April 2009 05 February 2010 22:57:34

Moach very eloquently described the most serious reservation I have about this idea. I am excited about the ability to: a) reward users who exhibit extraordinary effort b) 'earn' DXStudio license upgrades (or annual maintenance c) a currency to solicit dedicate expertise in the areas I lack If this could be provided without nuturing the 'mercenary' spirit Moach aptly described it would be a great asset to this community.

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 06 February 2010 13:33:55

I think we're all maybe getting a little off track While it's true that other forums have inidated all aspects of their forums with profit seekers; try to understand what Worldweaver is doing. They are not setting up anything like those other forums at all. The idea as I understand it is to have a new 'Advertizements and Jobs' forum that would be slightly modified ( like the bugs forum was ) to allow for the offers to compensate others for a small quick project. As Chris said the DX Tokens system would be limited to the new forum and a maximum Token offer would be set to 5 Tokens for any one job. Think of the DX Tokens system as a separate way to make an agreement between two individual members for a trade exchange of work. Something like: I need a 3D model of a duck with 2 animations; I'll compensate you with 3 DX Tokens and then the 3D artists would bid on the project and give comments to the person needing the 3D duck. Then the person needing the 3D duck chooses the bidding person they want to make the 3D duck for them. Now the system would hold three DX Tokens in limbo until the 3D duck is completed and both partys agree it's good to go. Then if the person needing the 3D duck is satisfied then the system will give them the 3D duck and transfer the three DX Tokens from limbo into the artist's DX Token bank. That's the idea as I understand it I love this idea because everyone would be able to do some small work for each other with a good universal currency ( DX Tokens ) in order to make sure that people follow through or cancel their offer and the limbo DX Tokens go back to the bank of the person who made the offer I love it even more because Chris also said that these DX Tokens would be applicable to bespoke projects as well ( and I have a couple very small and pretty easy bespoke projects in mind too ) @Chris: How'd I do?

Merrie Schonbach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 29 October 2006 08 February 2010 18:33:28

Thanks for breaking that down more UCM, that is a very streamlined way of handling it.

serialkiler Freeware Edition Joined 03 October 2009 08 February 2010 19:29:00

but be aware how u gonna implement the system,a bad system will brings us a bad community based on money and ppl will ask monies for everything...

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 09 February 2010 00:52:36

> and ppl will ask monies for everything... I think we all have worried about this enough to try and prevent it > will brings us a bad community based on money If that happens then I'll do 98% of everything for free, muhahahahaa

Funkas Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 28 February 2008 09 February 2010 09:26:41

> and ppl will ask monies for everything... It's not the worst scenario. What's if they ask monies for nothing..?

Moach Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 20 May 2008 09 February 2010 10:41:14

do they get their chicks for free? - couldn´t resist

BUnzaga Commercial Pro Edition Joined 07 June 2006 09 February 2010 13:32:14

I'll still be here, and the only thing I will ask for in return is proper credit in your final product. Brett Unzaga (BUnzaga) - Various Programming Contributions An email to let me know would be nice too, so I can put in on my list of 'Games I helped make'. Don't get me wrong though, I will always be open for money But I want people to give it to me on their own accord, not because I wouldn't help them otherwise. Perhaps I am one of those who thinks people are good in their hearts, and have compassion for my fellow DX Studio Developers.

ucm Commercial Pro Edition Joined 17 October 2007 09 February 2010 14:16:14

> I will always be open for money But I want people to give it to me on their own accord, not because I wouldn't help them otherwise. Ditto!!

Funkas Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 28 February 2008 09 February 2010 19:30:01

Yes, but... *proper credit in a crappy product* is something what I'd fear more than no credit at all... This can ruin your image in a quite unexpected way. Luckily, nobody reads credits so you can hope, you will never be thought in accordance with such thing. For that reason I never ask for credits. I'm usually happy, if my free model or code is used in game, but I'd be devilish angry if I see any of them uploaded to the sites which have models or publish code solutions etc. *An email to let me know...* However you always have to follow the conditions of the credited person, the better practice IMO is to ask someone if they don't mind to be credited in one or another thing, which was born with a little effort from myself. (For the reasons like above) It makes some difference too. PS. Sorry Chris, if this was full off topic

Thom Parkin Non-Commercial Pro Edition Joined 18 April 2009 10 February 2010 15:42:29

PS. Sorry Chris, if this was full off topic Then you get NO CREDIT for your comments!! LOL

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